Discussion:
You Kill Me
(too old to reply)
Ron Moses
2012-07-21 18:35:35 UTC
Permalink
I sincerely apologize to the group. I do. But I have to go on a rant now, so here's your fair warning; no hard feelings if you prefer to bail. I actually post this against my better judgment, knowing I'm likely to regret it about five minutes from now. But this one lyric is ruining the entire fucking album for me and I have to get this out of my system before I rage-quit the album entirely.

What's the difference 'tween a Taliban
And a preacher down in Birmingham
Shave 'em both and find an anchorman

If you already know the difference, and can understand how suggesting they are in any way equivalent might be deeply offensive to a thinking person, you can stop reading here. Thanks, and enjoy your day.

For the rest of us, let's examine, using real-world examples, the difference between a Taliban and a preacher down in Birmingham. If at the end you feel I'm being ridiculous, I'm prepared to take the blows.

===========================

First let's take a look at the Taliban. I'd like to introduce you to an Afghan woman whose name I unfortunately don't know. Shall we all join together in watching the final moments of her life? Come on, don't be shy; this is a learning exercise.

http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/47144.aspx

The Retuers report goes on to say that Taliban commanders were sexually involved with the woman, either through rape or romantically, and decided to torture and then kill her to settle a dispute between them.

She is only one of the countless victims of the Taliban's brutal oppression of women. Such as these 120 school girls the Taliban poisoned in an effort to "discourage" the education of females (which was banned entirely when the Taliban was officially in power):

http://digitaljournal.com/article/325445

Such attacks on girls' schools in Afghanistan have fallen off somewhat after the Afghan government struck a deal with the Taliban to end the insurgents' attacks on state schools in return for a more conservative religious curriculum and the hiring of Taliban-approved mullahs as teachers

In Pakistan, the Taliban has gone so far as to bomb girls' schools to rubble.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/16/us-pakistan-taliban-schools-idUSTRE7AF0GP20111116

For the sake of brevity, I will encourage you to read more about the Taliban's brutal oppression of women and other human rights violations here:

http://www.rawa.org/rules.htm

==============================

Now I'd like to introduce you to Pastor John Henry Williams, Jr. of the Greater St. John Missionary Baptist Church in Birmingham AL.

http://www.greaterstjohnonline.org/pages/the-pastor/

He has been pastor of Greater St. John Missionary Baptist Church since 2000, and Assistant Professor of Religion at Selma University since 2005. He holds a number of post-graduate degrees in both history and theological studies. He is a member of Alpha Phi Alpha, the first black, inter-collegiate, Greek-lettered fraternity. His father, grandfather, and great-grandfather were Missionary Baptist pastors and preachers.

Each year since 2001, under Pastor Williams's leadership, Greater St. John's has awarded the Perry-Williams Scholarship to help young men and women in the Birmingham community pursue their educational goals.

http://www.greaterstjohnonline.org/pages/perry-williams-scholarship/

Greater St. John's has also established Project 35211 with the purpose of seeking resources from beyond the Church in order to facilitate ministry in the wider world. Its proposed projects are:

1. Community Childcare
2. Youth Development
3. Senior Citizen Care
4. Community Re-building
5. Civic Rights & Responsibility
6. Quality of Life Issues for Powderly & Beyond (Powderly is a section of Birmingham -rm)
7. Kingdom & Community – The Separation & Cooperation of Church & State

In the spirit of fairness, I tried to find a video of a member of Pastor Williams's congregation shooting a woman in the head. Unfortunately I failed to find one, but perhaps they were just smart enough not to tape it.

=============================

So... What have we learned about the difference 'tween a Taliban and a preacher down in Birmingham? To summarize: one spreads his faith through violent oppression, rape, and mass murder. The other spreads his faith through prayer, community outreach, and the promotion of education. Of course one may not agree with all the tenets of either's faith; I certainly don't. But if one must ask the difference between them, then either one lacks the basic intellect to identify it, or more likely one is too blinded by bigotry and religious intolerance for any such difference to matter.

This all academic, of course. I think it's fair to infer that the question is meant to be rhetorical, given the next line in which it is suggested that we "shave 'em both and find an anchorman." From the point of view of the lyric, there is no moral difference between the Taliban who proudly murdered that unnamed woman and Pastor Williams; and in fact they are both deserving of the same fate. As to the nature of said fate... I am sincerely hoping that the reference to an anchorman is a literal one, and not an oblique suggestion that they both should suffer execution by drowning. Were that the case I would have a hard time avoiding the mental image of Pastor Williams's bloated corpse lynched at the bottom of the sea every time I hear that lyric, which I think would be rarely. I will offer the benefit of the doubt until I'm told otherwise (though I'm admittedly finding it difficult to make sense of the more literal interpretation).

Sad, too, since it's the best song on the album. Okay, that's my rant... open fire.

ron
Antal Adriaanse
2012-07-22 17:10:28 UTC
Permalink
I haven't heard the song or seen the lyrics. So I don't know the context.
Just wanted to note that there is also a Birmingham in the UK.
--
Antal
the mike keneally band tour chronology
e: chronology(at)keneally.com
i: http://www.keneally.com/chronology
Michael Pierry
2012-07-22 22:07:52 UTC
Permalink
Personally, I'm not offended or bothered by that lyric. I just don't
really understand it. Are anchormen known for being particularly
immoral? I don't know what the concept of an inner anchorman implies,
other than a primal urge to speak the news out loud in front of a
camera.
Cujo DeSockpuppet
2012-07-22 23:02:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron Moses
I sincerely apologize to the group. I do. But I have to go on a rant
now, so here's your fair warning; no hard feelings if you prefer to
bail. I actually post this against my better judgment, knowing I'm
likely to regret it about five minutes from now. But this one lyric
is ruining the entire fucking album for me and I have to get this out
of my system before I rage-quit the album entirely.
What's the difference 'tween a Taliban
And a preacher down in Birmingham
Shave 'em both and find an anchorman
There's a Birmingham in England that's named after the town in Alabama.
--
Cujo - The Official Overseer of Kooks and Trolls in dfw.*,
alt.paranormal, alt.astrology and alt.astrology.metapsych. Supreme Holy
Overlord of alt.fucknozzles. Winner of the 8/2000, 2/2003 & 4/2007 HL&S
award. July 2005 Hammer of Thor. Winning Trainer - Barbara Woodhouse
Memorial Dog Whistle - 12/2005 & 4/2008. COOSN-266-06-01895.
"It is truly KOOKY to be so obsessed with someone's success and your
inability to defeat them, that you parade around as them." Edmo,
explaining his use of all his sockpuppets.
This signature was made by SigChanger.
You can find SigChanger at: http://www.phranc.nl/
KevinDouglasPhD
2012-07-23 20:30:00 UTC
Permalink
I haven't got my copy of the CD yet, so I too don't know the context
of the lyrics. If it's referring to Birmingham in the UK, it may have
to do with their current problems with fundamental islamists wanting
the UK to accept Shariah law. But the word preacher isn't commonly
used in the UK AFAIK, so I'd guess it's talking about the town in
Alabama. I'm sure pastor Williams is a fine guy, but perhaps it's
referring to a (fictitious??) less tolerant man of the cloth, maybe
implying someone who uses religion to further a racist/misogynist
agenda, who knows? Is it the fact that Birmingham is named
specifically that bothers you so much? I can't imagine so. It's the
implication that fundamentalist ideologies are all wrong, whether it's
coming from fanatical Muslims, or fanatical Christians, or whatever.
I can't say I agree with that notion, but it's not the most offensive
thing I've heard or read.

Sure would be nice to see the lyrics to the whole song, to know how
these lines fit in...

The "shave 'em both" part just sounds like they're saying how clean-
cut they'd look - could you tell the difference just by looking?

I actually think you answered your own rant quite intelligently, Ron.
KD
m***@gmail.com
2012-07-24 23:58:08 UTC
Permalink
I sincerely apologize to the group. I do. But I have to go on a rant now, so here's your fair warning; no hard feelings if you prefer to bail. I actually post this against my better judgment, knowing I'm likely to regret it about five minutes from now. But this one lyric is ruining the entire fucking album for me and I have to get this out of my system before I rage-quit the album entirely.
What's the difference 'tween a Taliban
And a preacher down in Birmingham
Shave 'em both and find an anchorman
If you already know the difference, and can understand how suggesting they are in any way equivalent might be deeply offensive to a thinking person, you can stop reading here. Thanks, and enjoy your day.
For the rest of us, let's examine, using real-world examples, the difference between a Taliban and a preacher down in Birmingham. If at the end you feel I'm being ridiculous, I'm prepared to take the blows.
===========================
First let's take a look at the Taliban. I'd like to introduce you to an Afghan woman whose name I unfortunately don't know. Shall we all join together in watching the final moments of her life? Come on, don't be shy; this is a learning exercise.
http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/47144.aspx
The Retuers report goes on to say that Taliban commanders were sexually involved with the woman, either through rape or romantically, and decided to torture and then kill her to settle a dispute between them.
http://digitaljournal.com/article/325445
Such attacks on girls' schools in Afghanistan have fallen off somewhat after the Afghan government struck a deal with the Taliban to end the insurgents' attacks on state schools in return for a more conservative religious curriculum and the hiring of Taliban-approved mullahs as teachers
In Pakistan, the Taliban has gone so far as to bomb girls' schools to rubble.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/16/us-pakistan-taliban-schools-idUSTRE7AF0GP20111116
http://www.rawa.org/rules.htm
==============================
Now I'd like to introduce you to Pastor John Henry Williams, Jr. of the Greater St. John Missionary Baptist Church in Birmingham AL.
http://www.greaterstjohnonline.org/pages/the-pastor/
He has been pastor of Greater St. John Missionary Baptist Church since 2000, and Assistant Professor of Religion at Selma University since 2005. He holds a number of post-graduate degrees in both history and theological studies. He is a member of Alpha Phi Alpha, the first black, inter-collegiate, Greek-lettered fraternity. His father, grandfather, and great-grandfather were Missionary Baptist pastors and preachers.
Each year since 2001, under Pastor Williams's leadership, Greater St. John's has awarded the Perry-Williams Scholarship to help young men and women in the Birmingham community pursue their educational goals.
http://www.greaterstjohnonline.org/pages/perry-williams-scholarship/
1. Community Childcare
2. Youth Development
3. Senior Citizen Care
4. Community Re-building
5. Civic Rights & Responsibility
6. Quality of Life Issues for Powderly & Beyond (Powderly is a section of Birmingham -rm)
7. Kingdom & Community – The Separation & Cooperation of Church & State
In the spirit of fairness, I tried to find a video of a member of Pastor Williams's congregation shooting a woman in the head. Unfortunately I failed to find one, but perhaps they were just smart enough not to tape it.
=============================
So... What have we learned about the difference 'tween a Taliban and a preacher down in Birmingham? To summarize: one spreads his faith through violent oppression, rape, and mass murder. The other spreads his faith through prayer, community outreach, and the promotion of education. Of course one may not agree with all the tenets of either's faith; I certainly don't. But if one must ask the difference between them, then either one lacks the basic intellect to identify it, or more likely one is too blinded by bigotry and religious intolerance for any such difference to matter.
This all academic, of course. I think it's fair to infer that the question is meant to be rhetorical, given the next line in which it is suggested that we "shave 'em both and find an anchorman." From the point of view of the lyric, there is no moral difference between the Taliban who proudly murdered that unnamed woman and Pastor Williams; and in fact they are both deserving of the same fate. As to the nature of said fate... I am sincerely hoping that the reference to an anchorman is a literal one, and not an oblique suggestion that they both should suffer execution by drowning. Were that the case I would have a hard time avoiding the mental image of Pastor Williams's bloated corpse lynched at the bottom of the sea every time I hear that lyric, which I think would be rarely. I will offer the benefit of the doubt until I'm told otherwise (though I'm admittedly finding it difficult to make sense of the more literal interpretation).
Sad, too, since it's the best song on the album. Okay, that's my rant... open fire.
ron
I sincerely apologize to you, Ron, that it's such an upsetting line to you - not to cop out, since it's my album, but the lyrics to the song are Andy's and undoubtedly reflect the ferocity of his feelings regarding "manipulative greedy religious corporate scum the world over" (which is how he described the lyrics to me in an email) much more than they do mine. In fact when he delivered the lyrics last year my first thought was to ask him to sing it on the album (he politely declined) because they didn't necessarily reflect the opinion of the management (ie. me), and I also thought, and still do, that he would sound amazing singing them. But I thought, and still do, that it's a powerful lyric, and new Andy Partridge lyrics are sufficiently rare that I decided to go ahead and sing them anyway. And I do think the song has a lot of impact, so while I knew I was risking upsetting some people with the words, I chose not to suggest to Andy that he change any of them because I thought it basically worked very well as a rant leavened by a reasonable amount of humor, they sat very well alongside the instrumental track I'd done, and the song basically just WORKED for me.

Regarding that specific line, I could ask Andy if you like, but I really think that it wasn't a religious leader of Pastor Williams' ilk that he was referencing (even given that Andy's atheism is long a matter of public record, I don't think he tars ALL religious personages with the same brush). His ire, to me, seems reserved for the specifically and measurably hypocritical religious leaders who claim ties to God while preaching hate and divisiveness and intolerance, etc. etc. you know the drill. It is a simple and telescoped line, streamlined for purposes of rhyme and scansion, but at least it poses a question rather than positing a thesis statement that there IS no difference (in fact if he had delivered the line as "there's no difference 'tween a Taliban/and a preacher down in Birmingham," I wouldn't have sung it, because in no way do I believe that to be true...as a reasonably thought-provoking question, though, I decided to give it an airing. I actually like your answer to the question a lot. I don't think that Andy is blinded by bigotry and religious intolerance but he might arguably be a little blinkered by them - he is a bit misanthropic, certainly more than I am. I have such respect for him as a songsmith, though, and when I heard myself singing these words I had to say, "I wouldn't have written these words, and may not believe in them with my entire soul, but I am in accordance with their basic thrust, and the song really works as a thing."

Happy to continue discussing this if you want, and really genuinely fucking sorry for bumming you out!
Ron Moses
2012-07-25 11:51:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Happy to continue discussing this if you want, and really genuinely fucking sorry for bumming you out!
Thank you for your response, Mike, and for sharing your personal experience relating to this lyric. It's gone a long way toward chilling me out on that particular line, which as you can tell, really stuck in ol' craw. I also appreciate letting me know that it's Andy's line - like you said, not a cop out, but good to know. I have to say the thought of you penning that particular lyric disappointed me greatly, and I'm happy to be able to let that go.

It's a really good song, Mike, and a fine album. It might take me a bit to absorb that line into my appreciation for it, but I think I can manage not to let it put a damper on my enjoyment of the album.

love!
ron

Loading...